Talking about negotiation and owning rejection with A M&A consultant Alberto




debating is never a good idea unless you are some kind of politician in a you know politics debate and you want your you know a constituent to kind of like know what you care about what your ideas are that's okay but uh 90 of the times in everyday conversations or business conversations debating is never a good idea enforcing your opinion more importantly is never a good idea


hi everyone welcome back to life up education tv today we have another special guest all the way from italy his name is herberto welcome alberto hi natsune thanks for having me yeah and thank you very much for joining me today so today i wanted to have you because i i know that you worked in well actually so we're gonna we're gonna explain what you did we're gonna like properly give you an introduction of what you did but the reason i wanted to have you today is because this and navy had a very interesting conversation about um negotiation and also just interpersonal communication in general so why don't we talk about that today a little bit let me fix the camera a little bit here yeah um so why don't you start from telling us who you are like what setting you had practice and like interest personal interpersonal communications right sure um well let's see that professionally have been dealing with negotiation for a while in the sense that my job is essentially helping entrepreneurs and investors in general uh buy and sell businesses domestically as well as all over the world and that's what i've been doing for uh pretty much my entire professional career so about 11 12 years and uh and that really gave me an opportunity to get a lot of exposure to of course communication and negotiation which is a big part of what i do um when i was younger that was just probably a little fraction of my of my working time but over the time of course things have changed i became more senior and i got to spend more time uh dealing with everything related to you know getting a deal started executing the deal and negotiating every single step of the deal itself so um this gave me a kind of like a very interesting perspective um about human relations about human interaction and at some point i realized that was an area that i wanted to learn more about you know um both from a personal standpoint and from a professional perspective so um i started you know learning more about it reading a bunch of books so getting more information and uh and you know the whole thing is is pretty much about being a better communicator myself a lot of the things that you can apply on the job are very much applicable across every other area of your life and that is very fascinating to me of course and that's the reason why i started you know getting very much into this whole negotiation and uh broadly speaking communication word right so one thing i definitely wanted to talk about is like how can you


how so one of the things we spoke about before is how can you be how can you disagree with someone right like what would you do when you disagree with someone and i have two stories to tell i'm so i personally know you very well and one other thing that fascinates me a lot about you is that you are very um very resilient right and i guess in that sense you have a capacity and capacity to have empathy for people and you're very kind like you have a very kind approach to people in general you're very patient with people that in a short time like in a short game i feel like you have the capacity to let the other person win for example if you have an argument because you understand how to be patient with that person right but i think that that's the strengths that's the actual strengths and i think that's that's very hard to actually master i don't think like in today's i don't know if today is a good word to describe but you know with everything happening so fast with technology and everything where there's this element of speed and everything right and we kind of apply the same approach the speed approach to human relationship which definitely actually takes the patient takes like long-term perspective takes like actual effort um right i think you're really good at that like even if with this technology age i think you your way of approaching relationships are very very patient and i definitely want to talk about that what do you think about that and also another thing i thought about was you know the other day i posted something on instagram and someone reached out to me and basically i don't know this person that well you know and he basically disagree with me that's it and i know that he's in a position that he doesn't necessarily want hate on me or anything like that and then he texted me many times and at this point i kind of know that he wants to be like button right but then the first approach or the first um i guess the thing that he would say is by arguing with me right but that's not really like approach when it comes to wanting to gain the attention from someone right so what is the strategical like a good strategy and not like to first approach someone and then get attention like it is the argument works like if you want to gain attention from someone like what do you think of this no that's that's an excellent question i think you're raising a great point and this is something that i've been personally struggling a lot when i was younger because i i always had a tendency to debate which is what typically people do right whenever you are in argument and somebody has a different opinion about you your instinctive reaction is to actually debate right um we want to force our opinion into someone else's mind that happens by default i guess there are some exceptions but we are somehow wired uh in that way and and i guess the reason is because we we just want to be right we just want to feel important we want to be winners we don't like to be losers and so every conversation to some extent turns into a kind of like an opportunity for us to win and those little wins make us feel good uh and that's the kind of dopamine kick that we get when somebody agrees with us right it makes us feel good so that's what we try over and over and over and uh and so it takes a whole lot of effort i guess for us to really uh move away from that automatic response and try to use what i start to realize is the best approach here and the thing is um debating is never a good idea unless you are some kind of politician in a you know politics debate and you want your you know constituent to kind of like know what you care about what your ideas are that's okay but uh 90 of the times in everyday conversations or business conversations debating is never a good idea enforcing your opinion more importantly is never a good idea um the great thing to do all the time is listening this is possibly the most untrained skill ever people always focus on speaking people always focus on themselves right on their performance and they don't really focus on listening when in reality that's the key


the reason why arguments come up in the first place is because people don't listen they don't open up their ears and even when they do in reality what they are doing implicitly is waiting for the other person to stop talking so they can make their point and so the the whole time is basically wasted uh you think like you're listening but you don't really care you by default already decided that your opinion is worth more is right is stronger and so you're just gonna probably uh uh politely wait for the other person to stop talking that's a mistake uh that's a mistake because uh first of all there's always some truth behind everyone's opinion i believe so it's about putting yourself in the other person's shoes uh seeing reality from their perspective and understanding their reality in an empathetic way when people say something it's because they see life in a certain way they had certain experiences they believe in something which could be different from you and those are the main drivers that make them express their opinion you could have totally different drivers and so your job is not to force your own drivers but to get a real understanding as much as possible of the other person's driving it doesn't mean that you have to agree with those things but it means that you have to connect at that level and show the other person that you're listening um if you me when you are in a conversation with somebody and you're talking right i'm talking right now if you were to interrupt me abruptly right right away you just interrupt him and you start talking about something else i would probably be okay because we know each other and i wouldn't be making a big deal out of it but subconsciously i wouldn't be feeling good yeah i probably feel hurt a little and of course the last says the degree of knowledge and intimacy that you have with the other person and the more you feel offended somehow because it makes us feel that the other person is not interested in us is not listening is not making us feel important and this is just this kind of like corrupted behavior that causes people to pull up walls and so the whole conversation becomes more like like a defensive conversation where everyone is trying to protect themselves and protect their ideas and try to you know force those ideas into the other person so that's what i believe so everything that is about debating criticizing you know one of the typical things that we do and i do it myself a lot of the times actually now i'm trying to get rid of this habit but um yeah i did it a lot in the past and sometimes i still do it is when somebody says something we go like i understand but that's the kind of reaction that we have which means all right i got you i heard you more or less but you know what listen to me um you know listen to me what i'm going to tell you is more interesting and that is that pretends to be empathetic but it's not all right that is not a good communication style so if people were trying to actively listen make questions dig deeper into someone's positions and opinions a lot less arguments you you will be probably surprised to find how much common ground you can find out and even if you don't find common ground which is possible you still develop a trustworthy relationship and you might even pull the other person to your side that is absolutely possible um but you would never you know you would never convince someone of something if that person doesn't trust you if that person doesn't feel comfortable people open up when they feel comfortable but when they feel rejected when they feel you know that there's some kind of resistance uh your natural reaction as the human being is to be resistant because you sense you sense danger right right so that brought me up like two things um and two things i wanted to mention uh something that you said it triggered me to think uh something you know the reason we like parents is because they love us first right and maybe that's like the dynamic how human works like human relationship works like we tend to like someone or love some something when we receive first like i think this is the natural um system of how it works and maybe that has to do with what you were exactly talking about earlier right what do you think of that and also another thing i wanted to say is um you okay actually let's talk about this first what do you think of this no i think it's true um because like your need is not necessarily you wanting to be heard but it's more like can i trust you is the actual issue here right like when you have to argue with someone it's more like do you hear like it's it's more like i'm correct like you gotta agree with me but if if you look at this from very like a core or the fundamentally um what this speaker is doing is just basically seeing if the speaker can have a trust to the listener basically right like it's just a test that this speaker is doing instead of actually wanting to be heard what do you think of that this yeah um it's a little bit of a combination of the two things i guess uh on one hand um it's about feeling heard we want people to listen to us that is very important and on the other hand you need to have that trustworthy relationship if you want this person to open up to you and share information with you and eventually consider your option as a possible option you know but as long as there's attention as long as everybody is defensive um that is not going to happen that it's very hard for that to happen you're going to remain in your lane you're going to defend your safety zone so to say and and you're not going to consider the other person's opinion um and you know there's no data there's no fact that can actually convince you of the opposite um so the whole process is an emotional process i guess that's what a lot of people don't understand we tend to believe that people agree or disagree with us based on facts and data right and often times we just try to show them a bunch of numbers and figures and you know this is what it is because data says that but human brain works very differently and so data is is second in the list when it comes to us making a decision the first one is emotion and we only use data um to kind of like back up our decisions and so because everything is so emotionally driven if we want to be good communicators and avoid arguments and have more friends and close more sales and all that we have to fully realize that and understand that people uh are driven by emotions so if they feel good if they feel like you're not attacking them you know forcing their uh your opinion you're not trying to sell something to them but you're being very open very honest very understanding and you're listening then you feel much better and to some extent i guess it's um it's it's a weird mechanism so if i come to your side and i somehow somehow show that i understand you you feel like you owe me the same thing subconsciously you don't feel like you want to be all um you know all like um aggressive and you want to get back in me because i'm not being aggressive i'm being the opposite and so like confronting never works you feel more inclined right like yeah like we have this like like we need to prove to the other person that we're right right like but that just doesn't work because another thing i often talk about it's like well i mean this is something we talk about too but you know people can't agree with the point that they don't see themselves right like you are like you said coming back to the earlier point like people make decisions based on their experiences based on uh their perception and emotion which build from their experiences i guess more correctly and you know something i say often is like you know when people come try to argue with me or when people find my contents not agreeable i think it's just a timing you know it just takes timing too and you know given that our life condition is so different like me choosing to be entrepreneur versus someone else who is not entrepreneur maybe my tone of toughness sometimes is a little bit too aggressive because you know this person is not necessarily at the level of desperation or i guess survival mode you know what i mean right so i think it just comes down to what serves you and another thing like you said like i never try to impose my opinion on on other people once again that is because our context of life is just so different that it's just impossible for one fact to be applied in both cases right so i very much understand that as much as i have my own opinion which seems to be appreciated by others as well but at the same degree i really don't expect anyone to agree with me you know because everybody needs to find their own truth and once again some something that i say might might not speak to you at this very moment because your life circumstance is very different from mine but also when you goes to do maybe something similar then you will finally find what i said at the truth at that time later on or something like that like it takes timing as well you know so i decided um during this journey i decided that i will not focus on controlling how people see me or how people interpreting me because that is out of my control like i cannot control people look at me i cannot control your opinion on me or of whatever i say right so right that's kind of how i'm approaching and i think it gives me the courage to like basically just move on to whenever like i focus on production right like i focus on not being the correct one i focus on producing um like producing something so what do you think about that


no i i think that's the right approach i think we we just need to make a distinction um whether it's sales or not sales uh if you want to sell something at some point you want to try to convince others right you want to be influentive because you have to close a sale but uh if we are not talking about sales i agree with you there's really no point in trying to force your opinion into someone else um i guess that there are um ways to um somehow make the other person see your reality this again really depends on what what you're talking about if it's life experienced or versus other things of course this whole mechanism works a little bit better i guess in sales because there's an actual you know a product or an actual service um but generally speaking i i definitely agree with you um so there's no point in the next topic in the next episode let's let's talk about let's focus on sales in the next episode yeah sounds good yeah yeah no sure absolutely and um yeah yeah so i think this is actually becoming like a pretty long interview so i'm gonna close it here but alberto thank you very much for coming today to speak with us and tell us what you know about negotiation sure and everyone thank you very much for watching and i'll see you next time okay bye


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